Monday, November 3, 2008

Warhammer Online - Vindicated...

Now, if I could just go back and find any of that old deleted stuff, and how I kept saying

EVERYWHERE..

"You guys are so hyping this game, and it does not deserve it."

Vindication is sweet...

Kill Ten Rats...

"Mark Jacobs, August 29, 2008:
“Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”"
Ardwulf

"The MMO with no soul"

Hudson

"Why I left WAR"

And so many more.

50 bucks saved! WooT!

21 comments:

Tipa said...

It's easy to see why. The "can't miss" marketing strategy of trying to appeal to WoW players and ignoring the wishes of people who don't play WoW only gets you people who will be going back to WoW.

A multi-pronged marketing strategy, one with mini-games, character customization contests, player-written public quests and so on might have helped draw in people who were looking for a game that tried to aim higher than WoW.

I'm not sure that a campaign intended to only appeal to WoW players could EVER work, actually. Best by far to ignore WoW entirely and make a great game without worrying about having a Lua-modifiable WoW-like UI, for instance.

I've said a zillion things, if you make your game like WoW, why wouldn't someone just go play WoW, instead?

Openedge1 said...

Maybe us as the player is also to blame here.
We WANTED a replacement. I did not see it in WAR.
I thought I saw it in AoC, but after 20 levels, the disconnect of the player in the world just does not cut it.

Taking this break really is making me think of the genre, and what I wish to see, and how to approach it down the road.

I wish to ENJOY Spellborn and Aion without needing to be hyped or expecting something massive either.

I want some fun!

My new saying

"Hype killed the MMO Star"

JoBildo said...

I'm not sure why people who share your opinion vindicate you... when there are still plenty of people playing and having fun?

That'd be like me saying that because I don't read blogs about Vanguard means that no one likes it and it sucks, emphatically and without question or doubt.

But that's not true, because people do play it, and people do enjoy it. Far less people than WAR, but there are those who undeniably love VG. Does that make them wrong, and me "right"?

It's all opinion, man.

@Tipa: Truth be told, the game's not like WoW, and that if anything is the reason for some bloggers' disappointment. Hell, Hudson even says so much in his reason to leaving.

It's a game abou large guilds and groups of people fighting each other. Admittedly, until recently, the combat's been in Scenarios, but hey... I won't complain too much there because at least they're fun. :) Luckily though, Halloween's event helped spurn people in RvR and hopefully it'll be a trend that continues in 1.1.

WAR is for folks who want a DIKU-MMOG that's about PvP, both instanced and open, with PvE on the side.

WoW is for folks who want a DIKU-MMOG that's about PvE, both instanced and open, with PvP on the side.

See what I did there. What we're seeing, more than anything else, is people who are finding out WAR doesn't meet their expectations.

How is this a new phenomenon from any MMOG launch in recent memory?

Tipa said...

Plenty of MMOs launch all the time. But without the unending hype, nobody knows anything about them.

Luckily, AoC and WAR were so relentlessly hyped before launch that I knew I wouldn't enjoy either of them. If they had not been hyped, I might have tried them and formed my own opinion. But since I felt like I knew everything important about them, I was feeling like I'd been burned out on playing them without actually having played.

My next MMO, Spellborn, is a game I know nearly nothing about. It has not been pre-spoiled for me. I don't expect to find many WoW players. I do expect to find gameplay I don't expect and to have the continual feeling that I am someplace I have never been -- like that time I went to Jeuno at like level 12 in FFXI Online, before many English speakers had ever seen it.

But I know that if all the gaming sites suddenly decide to oversaturate it with coverage, I probably wouldn't want to play it anymore. I want a game I can discover on my own. Not one which has been packaged and commoditized for mass market enjoyment.

Openedge1 said...

@Bildo

The vindication is over the hype.

This game was going to be the game to take the people away from WoW, etc....

With players like Heartless, Hudson, Keen and Graev, and others who just railed against anyone who did not share their view (which you seem to be blaming me for...), now showing this dislike of THE game for them...it is quite hilarious to watch now.

It is the fact the game did NOT prove to be as good as they thought...

And even better, this little ditty always helps me understand who "still plays"...

X-Fire

JoBildo said...

Isn't just as easy to avoid that kind of info though? Just avoid those sites, right? I mean that's their purpose of existence, and if you know that's why they're there... why not just avoid them entirely? It's easier for me, as I get blocked at work from just about everything gaming related but blogs.

In regards to Spellborn, it's actually a really clever game. I'll be interested in seeing how it fares. Is it going with a free core, and optional pay program like other Acclaim games, or will there be a base monthly fee?

That's the one thing I've not been able to discern. I follow it, but for some reason, keep forgetting to hunt down that detail.

JoBildo said...

I don't recall Hudson, KnG or Heartless railing against anyone, I just recall them defending their point of view. Just as you do. I wouldn't call it "vindication", but I do support the "Told you so". That, you're most certainly justified in saying.

Hell, I could tell you "Told you so" about Conan post level 20 if I wanted to. :P But I don't think it matters.

What matters is that everyone finds a game/hobby/whatever that they enjoy. I'll never understand the pathology of why someone would stay and hate on a game they don't enjoy, whilst paying to play it. I'd much rather see people writing/enjoying/paying for games that do grab them.

Know what I mean, Vern?

Openedge1 said...

I think "Lessons Learned" should have been the title for this post actually..

As Tipa states, the "Hype" makes the person doing the hyping look silly when it all falls apart.

Imagine how Heartless who went to EVERY blog to fight against any negative post, is now the one being all negative...

I have my new grounds to not say a game looks like "The Game" ever again..

Lesson Learned!

Can you say the same Bildo?

Openedge1 said...

@Bildo

I don't recall Hudson, KnG or Heartless railing against anyone

Yet, you came and railed against me on MY blog, Heartless countless times called people stupid, Hudson instead of defending points, called people stupid..

This is the issue. Maybe because you were on the side of the "Pro" WAR players and defenders, that you were blind to it.

This is the reason for the vindication. Their attacks proved to be wrong for them.

Anyone can have the right to feel vindicated.

Why we have our blogs to post with...

So for today...I will post how I feel vindicated.

JoBildo said...

Well, in regards to Heartless. That's sort of his schtick. His writing's always very passionate, either on the side of the positive or the negative. Sort of the opposite of his namesake really.

Me? I enjoy hype still, but that's because I realize it's hype... does that make sense?

I like getting excited for new things. Movies, books, games, shows... whatever form of entertainment you can name. If it looks good to me, I don't mind getting excited about it. But then, I also keep my expectations measured.

I expected a solid traditional MMORPG with an emphasis on instanced and open PvP when I started thinking about purchasing WAR. That's PRECISELY what I got. Therefore, I feel great about the purchase, and I'm comfortable saying that the game lived up to its hype for me.

The key word there is "me".

Everyone has their own expectations, and their own niggles with games... things that set them off angrily or make them happy. Ysharros of Stylish Corpse put it well.

It may be the best idea to enter into a new game with NO EXPECTATIONS. Tipa's thinking along these lines. Avoiding the hype and all that.

But then, I usually research a new game to the point where I know what to expect. I get excited, I get pumped for a new title, but I never expect the messiah in videogame form.

I'm an idealistic realist. :)

JoBildo said...

Nope! Indeed you are entitled to do so, mate.

Again, before we off into Communist Russia again, let me be clear that I'm just voicing my opinion here.

If you didn't want me to, don't start such good conversation topics! :P

Openedge1 said...

@Bildo

No problem, I have yet to see you name call or attack my writing style.
That is when the disconnect of a good commenter comes into play.
Attacks do not equal good commenting to me.

Keep it informative and pleasant without the use of the word "assery" and I am just fine!

Keep the conversation going please.

Now...I think the real point is as you state

I also keep my expectations measured.

Which is fine (except...you think EVERYTHING will be awesome...lol..so not too measured..haha)

But, so many went off the deep end in regards to the "Hype" and it made so many true "fanbois", that maybe were not even fanboys to begin with.
The zealous behavior to defend something was almost a Religious Fervor.

WAR caused some major issues, and as such, to see this meltdown now is funny, and I feel good about it.

It also makes me know that if I start to do the same (defend some game without knowing what it's real worth is..), I better go into check mode.

I still defend AoC for example as a better game, with way more potential than WAR.
It is more forward looking in respects to engine, mechanics.

I cannot defend Funcom and their slow behavior though. This is the reason they do not deserve any more of my cash.

But, if I play one in the future, it would be AoC for at least trying something different.

Until Mark gets off his high horse, and sees what is happening there, I see WAR having an AoC fallout, and it could get ugly.
(I have noted he stopped blogging in September also, so a good first step)

What really happened here is another game was made to sound like it was more than it was (LOTRO always comes to mind here, with Steefel and the 4 million character remark), and the players made this issue happen.

Hopefully, WAR will keep what it has though, player base wise. But, it also needs to look inward and see the inherent problems in their mechanics, and work through that.

Glad you still enjoy it.

Tipa said...

I can't avoid the hype. I am hype's target demo -- avid MMO gamers who are looking for something new. And not only that, I appreciate SOME hype.

But when Massively ran their level 1-10 starting guide for every single race and class in every area with complete pull-outs for every single quest and public quest and every other bit of unnecessary trivia, and every other gaming site did the same -- that crossed a line with me. That is pages and pages and thousands of words of information that is counter to everything I love about MMOs -- the sense of mystery, discovery and adventure.

I didn't READ any of those articles, but they had their un-intended effect of informing me that the authors of these 'guides' saw their reader as someone who hates mystery, discovery and adventure, but is always on the lookout for the best shortcuts and the most efficient use of their time.

And that's been largely borne out by the bloggers I read. They themselves love discovery and adventure and just having fun, but they all write about the vast majority who are just looking for the "best" way to do things.

WoW's legacy, that there is an endgame and that the endgame is the only real game, will be harming MMOs for generations. WAR tried to buck that trend with stuff at every tier, but they couldn't overcome the WoW mentality, a mentality that was fueled by the measureless, merciless hype.

Please move to Wordpress so I don't have to fill out this stupid profile thing every time I comment.

Tipa said...

@Openedge1: You should rename this blog, "Schadenfreud"...

JoBildo said...

The biggest driving away factor for WAR that I've seen (from someone in the game) has been that people are upset that the battles are almost always in the Scenarios.

Until recently with the Witching Night and RvR XP increases, this was certainly true. The game was marketed to have warfare everywhere, and instead most of the fighting took place in battlegrounds a la WoW.

The good thing is that Mythic acknowledges and has already begun to counter this shortcoming with fixes and additions. Witching Night, by all accounts, showed me that people just need to be herded to where the action is.

Something that went unseen in beta, as folks were happy to test the game and all its facets then, was that scenarios were the fastest way to level. Once this became known in Live release, it quickly dominated peoples' gameplay.

Gamers, especially MMO gamers, are driven by progression. Not all of us for sure but I'm willing to bet the vast majority, coming off of WoW, are. So when one way to progress becomes so incredibly more productive than another, it's not surprising that people went right on into Scenarios and never looked back, leaving sections of the gameworld empty except for when people are between scenarios.

Does that make sense?

They've already done quite a bit in a few short weeks to lessen this, none of which has been nerfing a perfectly viable play experience (scenarios). Instead they're aiming to buff both PvE and Open RvR, especially the latter, to the point where it's "the place to be".

And, God love AoC, Mythic's done a far better job quickly fixing shortcomings and getting content out there than Funcom has. As much as I enjoyed 1-40 in Conan, I'm worried it'll never be what it could have been. They won't have the funds to make it so. But Morrison did a 180 for Anarchy Online, so maybe he can do it with AoC.

It's just that Mythic, thus far, has really impressed me with their ability to listen and tweak the game accordingly, without breaking things like Funcom consistently did/does with their patches.

In the meantime, I'll keep happily playing a WAR and check in on Hyboria at a later date.

I appreciate that you don't dig the way WAR plays, and have to say you might really enjoy Spellborn because of this fact, if they can get the whole thing together in time.

I don't see "everything" as awesome either. I just talk about what I am looking forward to, or enjoying... not what I'm not. Therefore, everything I blog about, is good in my eyes.

When I get frustrated with something in a game, you'll know it.

My LotRO posts on my old blogspot can tell you that much.

Openedge1 said...

Vas ist los? Schadenfreud? Nein..

Nicht Wahr!

(Meine Mutter ist Deutsch!)

Sorry, first Communism...now Nazi's?

Now we know....Tipa is the REAL troublemaker here!

(PS: I am turning back on comment authorization as turning it off has done the multiple profile settings...sorry...it saves mine, not sure why you are having an issue..)

Hudson said...

Ugh I dont want to get involved in this whole thing so I am gonna type fast.

Well first off, I knew I had this coming. While I defended WAR, to me it was a different game in beta than when it went live and by that I mean people interaction. I guess I am just a PVE guy, I still haven't done one PVP instance in WoW since I have been back

I defended WAR against people that said it was a lame WoW clone and NEVER PLAYED it. It is a good game for what it does, but in the end it just didn't keep me. Honestly, I simply expected more people. WoW has spoiled me in that I want a lot of people online and in my games. I just always go back to WoW, the same way some people can't leave EQ2 or Vanguard or whatever.

I am not touching any other MMO from now on until I get the full report, and no more betas for me. Lich King is pre ordered, I have signed my pact with the Devil and I'll pick it up Wed at midnight.

brenda said...

lol it works. With my Google profile, but whatever. At least I don't have to type my handle and blog anymore :) Total win :))

Sente said...

@Bildo:

Many players are indeed driven by progression, but that progression can be provided in many different ways. I think Tipa is right in that WoW in particular has done some damage to the MMOs in their focus on the end game part as the "real game". They have obviously spent a lot of time and effort on the content before the max level also. But over time they have degraded that part of the game themselves and provided a well trodden path to get there.

Look at a number of other games released before WoW. Either there was no specific end game or it was not so distinctly noticeable as in WoW.

In the post-WoW era you see lots of people asking before release of a game "what is the end game?". If there is no clear view of a distinct end game or it is not there directly and working at release, people think the game sucks even before they are close to reach the max level.


As for Spellborn, the game is a regular subscription-based game. It is just that the free trial part is for the initial zone(s) of the game. Pretty similar to what Saga of Ryzom did. Both Acclaim and Frogster will handle this in the same way is my understanding.

Scott said...

Yes, Spellborn is doing something I wish SOE had done with Vanguard's new trial, and I hope Turbine does with DDO's new tutorial area (though I doubt they will) -- the entire starter zone is free to play, permanently. Not 14 days. Permanently. To advance beyond that, then the subscription is required.

Me likey...

Scott said...

Sente is spot-on about end-game. I'm still convinced this concept of "end-game" didn't come about until EQ and it's level-based scheme, and all others who followed in its shadow where you reach level cap, your XP bar goes away and you've reached "the end" of the game.

I don't recall ever hearing the term "end-game" in SWG (pre-CU/NGE obviously). I didn't play UO, also a level-less game, but I don't recall reading about "end-game" in UO. There's just "the game."

WoW was developed by top-tier EQ raiders, hence it has the raiding end-game. 11 million subs, many of whom WoW is their first, or favorite, MMO and all others will be compared to it. If new games don't have a raiding progression "end-game" then by default, the WoW raiding lemmings will think those games suck.